Welcome to robert's trumpet
HOME: BOOK#3
15 August 2025 - Paragraph on 1 Thess. 4:15-17 added 60% down in the text, just before Seven Pretrib Problems figure. There are two chronologically separate events: (1) vv. 15-16 (resurrection and Christ return at the midpoint) as a precursor "then" (2) v. 17 (rapture in Rev. 8:5).
Three dispensational raptures: "Beyond prewrath" resolves the rapture issue of prewrath and posttribulation with both having merit. Basically, both of these premillennial rapture views make up this dispensational rapture solution. These two faith-based dispensational groups represent the one bride of Christ who together attend the bema' (Rev. 11:18), though were chronologically taken separately with the presence of God theophanies in Revelation 8:5 (elect) and 11:19 (Israel). Most, if not all, theological scholars recognize two distinct peoples of God: Israel and the Church.
It is not possible for the faith-based Jewish people (second group) to be taken earlier with the elect rapture (first group) since they are decreed to live through the entire 70th week of Daniel (Dan. 9:24-25), which forces their spiritual salvation, described in OT Joel 2:32 (cf. Acts 2:21), after the elect rapture in the first theophany (Rev. 8:5) of the seventh opened seal, though before their second theophany (Rev. 11:19) deduced dispensational rapture in the seventh blown trumpet.
A third dispensational group, the "sheep," are proposed as a people of God. These sheep who are "blessed by my Father," from the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25:31-46, "will inherent the (millennial) kingdom prepared for you," (v. 34) though taken based on works (vv. 35-36). These works must be directed only to Jesus's faith-based brothers (Matt. 25:40; cf. 12:50) likely during their great tribulation (fifth opened seal). This dispensational works-based group taken (Rev. 16:18 presence of God theophany) is deduced to represent those being reigned over by Jesus and the faith-based (first two groups) during the thousand years of Jesus reign (Luke 22:28-30; Rev. 20:4). The next paragraph contrasts those sheep separated based on works (Matt. 25:35-36) and those sheep later identified as faith-based (v. 46b).
Sheep: Works-based vs faith-based: A distinction is made between the sheep (1) "blessed by my Father” who are separated from the goats based on works (Matt. 25:34-36) and (2) those who are determined to be “righteous into eternal life" (v. 46b). Salvation has always been by faith and not by works (Eph. 2:8-9). So, how do we deconflict these perceived opposing Scriptures of the same sheep? The following paragraph provides my best interpretation. Regardless of interpretation, there is a strong case to be made that the sheep will be the ones reigned over during the millennium, who represent the third dispensational rapture group, a people of God.
The sheep are deduced to be those who disobeyed, the first angel proclamation of the eternal gospel (Rev. 14:6-7; cf. Matt. 24:14) at the midpoint (Matt. 24:15; Dan. 9:27), since they are not raptured with the faith-based church (Rev. 8:5) or faith-based Jewish people (Rev. 11:19), though obeyed the third angel proclamation of not taking the mark of the beast and worshiping it (Rev. 14:9-11).
As discussed later below in the "Sixth" book review item, it appears the sheep attend the wedding supper. Perhaps all the sheep who see Jesus would then profess Him as Lord and Savior and therefore obtain eternal life (Matt. 25:46b). Their eternal life does not come until after they "inherit the (millennium) kingdom prepared for you," where they live long lives on earth during the millennium though eventually have a physical death.
They seem to be the ones who witness to their offspring during the millennium reign of Jesus. Their offspring who do not obtain spiritual salvation, seem to be part of those who attend the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-15) at the end of the millennium. Their other offspring, who are faith-based, go to eternal life. All of the faith-based sheep, taken in Revelation 16:18 (third theophany), missed the earlier bema' (Rev. 11:18), so what could be their rewards after the millennium? It could be as simple as having eternal life only on the new earth.
This dispensational rapture view has elements of three well-established premillennial views:
A. Midtribulation - Jesus returns to the sky for a resurrection and rapture, then later at Armageddon returns for battle. Beyond prewrath has similarities, Christ returns, from heaven to earth, at the midpoint with a resurrection of the saints, three angel proclamations, day of the Lord (though beyond prewrath has as the first of seven), abomination, and a gathering (on the ground and not in the air), though not for a midtrib rapture. This dispensational view also includes, at the midpoint, Satan being thrown out of heaven, and the abomination (derived from the end of the temple sacrifices) with a fleeing from Jerusalem.
B. Prewrath - A rapture, for the elect, after the great tribulation, though in the seventh seal. A same day gathering (in the sky) and day of the Lord. Prewrath is a good view which this author previously held to before seeing the big picture of a three-time dispensational rapture view.
C. Posttribulation - A rapture at the end of the 70th week, mainly, if only, for those Jewish. Consider Peter's Pentecost sermon restricted to them in Acts 2:14-21ff. 5:42 (cf. OT Joel 2:28). (Ref. 1)
Dispensational (whole) vs non-dispensational (partial) rapture groups: Each of the three proposed dispensational rapture groups (Church, then Israel, then "sheep") are each taken as a "whole" and not "partially," at different chronological times. Historically partial rapture views chronologically separate the elect-church (one dispensational group) into more than one rapture. They seem to understand a need for different chronological group raptures, though fail to identify them and separate them each as one unbreakable dispensational group.
Awareness and discussion: My hope and prayer is that book authors, pastors, and other leaders will begin to recognize that this perspective may have merit and start thoughtfully examining its strengths and weaknesses. YouTube-Rumble videos and internet posts are helpful for quickly spreading awareness and sparking discussion. Those most likely to be open to this view initially are proponents of the prewrath and post-tribulation positions, since the beyond prewrath perspective includes a dispensational rapture framework that applies to both.
Midpoint Resurrection with the Coming of Jesus: The Second Coming of Jesus—from heaven to earth—is described in Scripture as occurring "with all His saints" (1 Thess. 3:13), indicating a concurrent (Israel and Church) resurrection event (OT Dan. 12:1a-3; OT Zech. 14:5; NT 1 Cor. 15:52; NT 2 Thess. 1:13). His coming, with all His saints (resurrection), is proposed to take place at the midpoint (fifth seal). According to the beyond prewrath dispensational understanding, the rapture of the elect (Matt. 24:30-31; 1 Thess. 4:17-18; Rev. 8:5) is associated with the seventh seal, suggesting that a resurrection occurs earlier in the prophetic timeline and not concurrently.
11 August 2025 - Three words chronologically connect Zech. 14:3-5 and Matt. 24:15-20: Daniel 12:1-3a has this OT resurrection (cf. OT Zech. 14:5; NT 1 Cor. 15:52; NT 2 Thess. 1:13), which is at the midpoint when Christ returns, from heaven to earth (think ground (Mt. of Olives, Acts 1:9-12) not in the air). These verses refer to a "time of trouble" for the living, which starts the Great Tribulation. Verse 1 continues that your people, identified as Jewish people since Daniel is Jewish, shall be delivered (not raptured), though physically separated on earth by self-relocation, by following OT Zechariah 14:3-5 guidance. This deliverance is considered to occur at the midpoint with the abomination of desolation. At that time the Jewish people in Judah/Judea (generally present-day Jerusalem) are commanded to flee to the/my mountains (Zech. 14:3-5; Matt. 24:15-20; Dan. 9:27; cf. Rev. 12:7-14). Jesus returns at this midpoint to the Mt. of Olives (Zech. 14:4; Acts 1:9-12) since there is a day of the Lord (Zech. 14:1) and His feet on the Mt. of Olives (v. 4).
The importance of the parallel of Zechariah 14:1-5 and Matthew 24:15-20 cannot be understated. There are three words (not one or two words, but three) that tightly connect these Scriptures chronologically: (1) flee (Zech. 14:5; Matt. 24:16), (2) mountains (Zech. 14:5; Matt. 24:16), and (3) Uzziah king of Judah (Zech. 14:5) vs Judea (Matt. 24:16), which is at the midpoint of the 70th week of Daniel (Matt. 24:15; Dan. 9:27).
No one knows the day: Many believe that pinpointing the exact day of Jesus’s return from heaven to earth is impossible, arguing with Matthew 24:36. The mid/pre-wrath/post tribulation views all assume that Jesus’s return to earth will coincide with the rapture. The beyond prewrath view, however, agrees with pre-tribulation proponents that the elect rapture and Jesus’s return are distinct chronological events—though it argues they occur in the opposite sequence.
Matthew 24:37–39 clarifies that the uncertainty of that exact day is analogous to the ability to distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, as illustrated by the days of Noah and Lot (Luke 17:27–30). This analogy therefore only points to the eschatological righteous physical separation with an elect rapture prior to and on the same day as that reflective Day of the Lord. (See DOTL tab). According to this beyond prewrath view, Jesus’s return, from heaven to earth, is seen as a knowable event—occurring 3.5 years (1,260 days) after the antichrist (also called little horn (Dan. 8:9) or prince (Dan. 9:26)) confirms a covenant with many (Matt. 24:15-17; Dan. 9:27; cf. Acts 1:9-12; Zech. 14:1-5). The Zechariah 14:1 day of the Lord at that derived midpoint demands Christ presence, with a later elect rapture after the great tribulation of the fifth seal. That same day Revelation 8:5 theophany rapture is followed with verse 7 day of the Lord, which is seen as an unknowable exact one calendar day. (Ref. 2)
Israel spiritual salvation after the elect rapture: The abomination occurs at the midpoint-when the Jewish people are on their housetops in Jerusalem. They would be expected to be delivered by fleeing (Dan. 12:1; cf. Zech. 14:1-5; Matt. 24:15-20), some say to Petra in present day Jordan. Those who flee already have their name written in the book (of life) (Dan. 12:1). What is interesting is that they cannot be spiritually saved (Acts 2:17-21) until after the elect are raptured in the seventh open seal, else they would be physically taken with them. Basically, God knew they would be spiritually saved, in the future, before they did (Eph. 1:3-4), so He provided a means of escape (to a different earthly location), to be protected and nourished for 3.5 years (Rev. 12:14), and then to be taken at the end of the 70th week in Revelation 11:19 dispensational rapture theophany.
Two Martyred Groups with Separate Resurrections: During the Great Tribulation—with its midpoint start, marked by the Abomination of Desolation (Matt. 24:15; Dan. 9:27)—Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives (Acts 1:9–12) accompanied by His saints from the same day resurrection. During this great tribulation (fifth opened seal), many Christians are martyred for the word of God (Rev. 6:9–11; cf. 12:17). These slain believers are depicted as being brought into the Lord’s presence beneath the altar, where they are given white robes—suggesting they possess physical bodies. Those "under the alter" appear to be waiting until all their brothers join then.
Two distinct groups of martyrs are described in Revelation 6:9-11: those already under the altar who speak with the Lord, and their fellow martyred brothers who have yet to arrive. This chronological distinction, beyond the midpoint seems to imply either two corresponding martyred group resurrections or that each martyred individual experiences a personal resurrection immediately upon death.
Therefore, we are now counting up to at least three chronologically different resurrections to life, though the elect rapture has not yet occurred until after the great tribulation (Rev. 6:9-17). All of these incremental resurrections (during the fifth, sixth and seventh seals), must be accounted for before the earthly elect rapture of the living fulfilling 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 prophecy.
Each group taken at the end of a septet: It is interesting to note that the three dispensational groups are taken separately at the end of each septet. These septets include the seven seals (the first septet), the seven trumpets (the second septet), and the seven bowls (the third septet). In Scripture, seven often symbolizes perfection or completion which fits with the new dispensational rapture view. The first group, the elect, is taken in Revelation 8:5, at the opening of the seventh seal. The second group, the Jewish people, is taken in Revelation 11:19, at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. The third group, referred to as the "sheep," is taken in Revelation 16:18, at the pouring of the seventh bowl.
Resurrection then Rapture on Different Days - Beyond prewrath proposes the 1 Corinthians 15:52 "last trumpet," when the dead will be resurrected, to represent the third and last angel proclamation (Rev. 14:9-11), where the "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." OT proclamations are often associated with trumpets, when a "congregation shall gather themselves," which both Scriptures are associated with (Num. 10:2-3). The following gospel preached to the world Scripture analogy provides a second, though much stronger argument.
This "last trumpet" starts at the midpoint (though extends into Revelation 8:5 elect rapture) is derived by considering the chronological parallel between the first angel proclamation of the eternal gospel (Rev. 14:6-7), and Matthew 24:14 gospel proclaimed (before the midpoint abomination in Matt. 24:15; cf. Dan. 9:27). Also, chapter 1 supports Jesus's return, from heaven to earth, at the midpoint (using Acts 1:9-12 and 2 Thess 2:1-4, both as different starting points). Jesus must return with his saints, who would meet Him when they are resurrected (1 Thess. 3:13), though not for a concurrent rapture.
Different days for 1 Thess. 4:15-16 and v. 17:
As discussed previously, there are at least two chronologically later resurrections after this midpoint (in the great tribulation, Rev. 6:9-11) as shown with those of physical bodies (they are given robes) under the altar of God. Their brothers being resurrected join them in a "little while." These additional two resurrections "under the altar" and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 explicit sequence prevents the elect rapture occurring when Jesus returns at the midpoint or before (as with midtrib or pretrib) with His Saints, from their resurrection. All incremental elect resurrections must be complete before the elect rapture in Revelation 8:5 theophany to fulfill 1 Thessalonians 4:15 chronological sequence.
(15 August 2025) 1 Thess. 4:17 "then" does not mean Immediately after with 4:15-16 - Some may claim that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 sentence which starts with "Then" means a chronological concurrent event with the previous verses 15-16. "Then" should be interpreted as vv. 15-16 as a precursor of v. 17 events. All Scripture must harmonize, as described in the previous paragraph, which mandates these events occur at chronologically different times, that is, the first event (resurrection and Christ return (from heaven to earth) at the midpoint, and two Rev. 6:9-11 resurrection groups representing 1 Thess. 4:15-16) as a precursor to the second event (one-day rapture event, v. 17 with Christ continued presence on earth) in the seventh seal in Revelation 8:5 theophany. See the paragraph several paragraphs earlier "No one know the day."
Three Authors Deny the Pretrib Rapture in Scripture. Page 45 of chapter 3 shows three well-known authors (Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, Mark Hitchcock - think millions of books sold) who say there is no Scripture that supports the pretrib view (Ref. 3, 4 and 5). Is this a view which you really want to belong with?
